Michael Bull, CCIM, founder and CEO of Bull Realty, is an active commercial real estate advisor. He is a licensed broker in nine southeast states and has assisted clients with over 5 billion dollars of transactions over his 30 year career.
Mr. Bull founded Bull Realty in 1998 initially with two primary missions: to provide a company of brokers known for integrity, and to provide the best disposition marketing in the nation. Now Michael and his brokers provide disposition, acquisition, project leasing, tenant representation, and advisory services in all major property sectors.
You may know Michael as executive producer and host of America’s Commercial Real Estate Show. The popular weekly show began broadcasting in 2010 and today is heard by millions of people around the country. Michael and other respected industry analysts, economists and leading market participants share market intelligence, forecasts and success strategies. The show is available on-demand on iTunes, YouTube, and the show website, www.CREshow.com.
If you get a chance, see Michael speak at commercial real estate events around the country. Michael is a national speaker and senior instructor with Commercial Agent Success Strategies. The company provides live and on-demand streaming video training for commercial agents. Preview videos at the website, www.CommercialAgentSuccess.com.
Mr. Bull’s articles have been published nationwide including in the National Real Estate Investor, France Media Publications, Atlanta Journal Constitution, Atlanta Business Chronicle, Multi-Housing News, Shopping Center Business, The Broker List, and Nation’s Restaurant News.
Michael’s involvement with professional organizations include CCIM Member, National Association of REALTORS, the International Council of Shopping Centers, the Real Estate Brokerage Managers Council, Atlanta Leaders Group, Real Estate Group of Atlanta, the Georgia Bankers Association, the Atlanta Press Club, the Atlanta Chamber of Commerce, the Georgia Real Estate Educators Association, Urban Land Institute, and the National Association of Real Estate Editors.
Michael lives in the Chastain Park area of Atlanta and enjoys spending time with his family, off-road performance vehicles and performance boating.
Find out more about Michael Bull at:
commercialrealestateshow.com
Looking to grow a real estate empire but don’t know where to start? Pick up a copy of Money, People, Deal by Stefan Aarnio for only $3.95 at www.moneypeopledeal.com/podcast.
To get exclusive podcast listener only offers for the 100K Challenge (like a free hotel room for the event), email Devin Savage at DSavage@StefanAarnio.com.
To learn more about the 100K Challenge visit www.stefanaarniolive.com.
Stefan Aarnio: Ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the show, Respect The Grind with Stefan Aarnio. This is the show, where we interview people who’ve achieved mastery and freedom through discipline. We interview entrepreneurs, athletes, authors, artists, real estate investors. Anyone who’s achieved mastery, and understands what it took to get there. Today on the show we have Michael Bull, he’s a commercial real estate expert. He’s earned over 5 billions dollars of transaction. He runs America’s Commercial Real Estate Show, and he’s licensed in nine South East states, and he’s also the founder of commercialagentsuccess.com. Michael, welcome to the show Respect The Grind. Thanks so much for joining me.
Michael Bull: Stefan, thank you. Glad to be on.
Stefan Aarnio: Thank you. Now, you know, it’s a really exciting thing for me, because a lot of people at home listening to this show are property investors, they own multifamilies, small multifamily. Maybe they’re flipping real estate, or want to be in real estate, and the holy grail that I always hear from people in real estate is, “I want to be in commercial. I want to be in commercial. I want to be in commercial.” It seems like it’s this big dream. Why do people want to be commercial real estate, versus, something like just residential?
Michael Bull: I thinks as an agent or broker, the commercial side may look great, because they think of it as higher priced properties, bigger commissions, just making more money. Maybe, they think it takes less time, and maybe it’s not as personal as with someone’s house. I’ve only sold a few houses in my day, but every time I did, I regretted it. But commercial real estate, it’s very logical, and it is a lot of fun.
Stefan Aarnio: Awesome. So, [inaudible 00:01:58] Michael, Commercial real estate’s one of those thing … I don’t know if it’s a super easy thing to get into. How did you get started in that field, and what led you here today?
Michael Bull: Yeah. Well, I started managing apartments while I was in school. And so a company taught me how to acquire apartments, turn them around, and operate them properly. I got my license at 19, and the first thing I sold was a 20-unit apartment building. So, kind of started from there. At 23, I was a full-time commissional agent, and I did well … So in mainly apartments, and at some shopping centers. And then 21 years ago, it’d gotten too big for me, and so I started my own company. And now, 35 brokers, licensed in nine states, and we have brokers specializing in various sectors. So, that’s kind of how I got started. I was looking for something that was, where dealing with people. Where you can add value to people around you, and it helps you make money. So I found commercial real estate just to be well suited for me. You kind of get out what you put in, and so if you want to be more efficient with your time, and your processes, and your sales ability, and your training, then you can add … help more people and make more money.
Stefan Aarnio: Right. I love that. It’s bigger dollars, bigger money. Now, let me ask you this, right. I mean, people listening to this show, are always looking to find a real estate deal. They’re always trying to find a deal. In a lot of the times, in my business we’ll buy at 40 to 60 cents lower, so something just stressed, something screwed up, how do people find deals, or really great things to add value to in the commercial real estate world, and is it different than the residential world?
Michael Bull: I think it’s somewhat similar. In commercial real estate, you’ll find that a lot of brokers, will focus on one thing. Like for instance, in our shop, we have some brokers who just who sell storage. There are some just do senior housing, some that just do medical house building, and just do multifamily. So one thing you might do, is see whose focus is on the sector, or property type that you’d like to acquire in the general area. That you’d like to acquire them, and build a relationship with them. Let them know that you’re capable. Let them know that you move quick. Let them know your track record, you have a building. And the second thing I’d let them know is that, you’ll protect them and their fee, if they bring you something that’s off-market, that … Maybe something’s not particularly, exclusively listed by them, but they know it’s seller. Sometimes you get a seller who isn’t seeing the forest for the trees, so you’d have them list it on … Doesn’t want to list it, but he’ll sell it, and that seller has less buyer competition, increasing the price.
Michael Bull: So if a buyer can buy off-market, they might have two or three competitors, or maybe none. And sometimes, that agent who focuses on that property type, who’s calling on those owners, all day, every day, could be the one that can bring you that opportunity. And you should let them know, you’ll protect them. So that’s the big thing.
Stefan Aarnio: Yeah. I was going to say, I always say there’s three ways to get deals, networking, marketing, and negotiating. And those private deals, I think that’s where people really, really do well. I mean, that’s just my inkling. In commercial real estate, I’m up here in Winnipeg, in Canada. So, up north from you. In the commercial world up here, we don’t have … There’s no MLS, there’s no centralized way to go and find … You’ll find the residential world where in others, couple thousand homes on the local MOS. Is that the case all over, where there’s no centralized way, and it’s really just networking and relationships?
Michael Bull: Typically. Now, there are a few systems like LoopNet, but they won’t have the larger transactions, nicer properties. Some, even agents with exclusive listings, might not put it on LoopNet, for fear of having too many unqualified buyers. But there’s no requirement for listing any properties in any system, for commercial agents. There’s also no requirement for commercial agents to participate with other commercial agents. If they do participate, there’s no requirement for them to compensate those other agents. So, therefore your networking idea’s a great one, because that’s why you got to have these relationships with the brokers, so it focuses on the property type that you want to buy. So that they know you directly, they feel comfortable talking to you about something. So maybe not exclusively listed and on market.
Michael Bull: There’s a lot of buyers that have found that’s a good way, because like one of my brokers may an opportunity to sell them, just one not listed. And then he can only take it to a buyer that he trusts, that he’d said he’d protect them, and frankly sign off, and sign an agreement, that on that particular property, that you will protect the agent.
Stefan Aarnio: Let me ask this, Michael. Why are these …? What are some of the reasons why a seller would not want to list it, and why they’d want to move quietly? Just for people at home.
Michael Bull: Well, typically they might be for various reasons. One might be, they just don’t understand the benefit of it. They don’t understand that the supply and demand affects the value of everything. Really if they do want to sell their property, they really should list it. Another thing might be, they haven’t found an agent that they feel comfortable with. Maybe they’ve had a bad experience with an agent in the past, and they don’t understand that an agent can do a really great job for them. Because not all agents are the same, right? Or the company. So, is an agent going to use 200 websites, 70 marketing systems, 7 eMarketing systems? Do we have a database with 841, or maybe 18,000 potential buyers? Or is this an agent that’s going to cost you the local buyers? If it doesn’t work out, they’re kind of done. So, there’s a lot of reasons. Now, sometimes on the very large assets, a seller may want a more direct sale.
Michael Bull: So if we’re selling institutional quality larger property, a client may not want the … Let’s just use an office, for an example, where the tenant reps are bringing a lot of tenants to those buildings. The owner of the office building may not want it out in the community, that that building is for sale. So he may want a quiet sale, like … We’ve done one time, where we identified the top 25 buyers in the country, of office properties, because we had a portfolio. And we went to … And then we graded them, who was number one through ten. And we went to them, one at a time, ”Hey, do you have the dry powder? Is … Do you have the time? And is this [inaudible 00:08:36] deal? If it’s something you can do right now?” If it was, we went to them, and we gave them a certain amount of time, and then if they didn’t buy it, we went to number two to talk about a quiet sale, but it’s very direct.
Michael Bull: Or sometimes, we’ll ask them, “Hey, get us the top 25 hotel buyers in the country for this hotel. We don’t really want it publicly available.” So it really depends on the size of the project, the particular seller, the asset type, of what’s the best way to market it. Sometimes it’s just a seller, just hasn’t realized that he do better selling his property, by getting listed with someone who does a good job.
Stefan Aarnio: Wow. So, it sounds like … I think in the residential world, a lot of times an agent just throws up a house on MOS, and the system does all the work. It sounds like the commercial agents have to actually do something to earn their money. Would you say that’s true?
Michael Bull: Yeah, it’s true. And it also kind of makes it more logical. It’s, for instance sell houses, and they do well. But once they put it in the multi-list, and they do a nice … some nice images, and brochure, maybe advertise it, or something. There’s not much they can do, they can’t really call home buyers. But in our market, we can find out who’s best for the property, who owns similar properties. We spend a lot of money to have access to rents, to rates, to trends, to absorption, to new supply, to all the owners who own property. So, we can directly reach out to these buyers, and share with them the benefits of why they should buy it. So, it becomes more logical, if you will, and not about the color of the paint.
Stefan Aarnio: So Michael, how important is information in the commercial real estate world? You just mentioned that there’s the rents, and the numbers, and the absorption. How important is information in making a purchase, or knowing if something’s a good deal or not?
Michael Bull: Well, it’s extremely important. You want to know your competition. You want to know your demand. You want to know if there’s new supply coming into the market. You want to know about the jobs, and demographics of the area, so that … Because you want to [inaudible 00:10:41] with the part’s that going. You want to know the future of performance of this property. Obviously, you look at the past performance. What you’re buying is the future, right? So you really want to look at the future. So, you want to have access to the demographics. You want to know what the rents are for competing properties. You want to know the properties, the subject property competes with. You want to know how the subject property is marketed, how it’s leased. How the competing properties are marketed and leased. So you can see if there are places where you can value add with this asset. Or is it optimally running? And there’s nothing else you can do. It is what it is. Maybe it’s still a good deal, but you know what you have.
Michael Bull: And you also want to know something about the industry, the tenants are in. So if it’s retail, medical and what have you. You want to look at the tenants, what they do, their credit. You also may kind of just look at their industry. We’ve had some clients buy large medical bill, and they didn’t know that a couple of very large tenants were moving out. Well, because we’ve got a medical office division in the South East, we’re tracking that all the time. We knew that. And if they would have involved us in the purchase, we could have told them, “You’re going to have some large vacancy coming up.” They just didn’t know it, because they weren’t focused in the geographic area, and the property types. So information is huge. You really want to have, as much as possible.
Stefan Aarnio: Yeah, that’s amazing. Now some of commercial deals that I’ve been looking at buying, come with a commercial appraisal. There’s a commercial appraisal that comes with the property. How important is that to figuring out the value of what it is that you’re buying, or find out the value of commercial real estate? Because you can’t just go to get comparables. Doesn’t work like that. How important is that appraisal?
Michael Bull: When people ask me, if they’re going to sell their property, should they get an appraisal, the answer’s typically, “No.” Unless their bank, or someone that, for some reason has to have one, for regulatory reasons. But we don’t recommend it. Because, an appraisal is an opinion of value of that appraiser, as of that time. They’re using past sales, not the future or current sales, and they’re not as much looking at the future of the property, and how it might perform. Also the appraiser might not have seen how the comps were marketed, or the condition of the comps when they were marketed. So sometimes a building will just bring a lot more than another property that’s very similar, because of the way it was marketed. The appraiser may work on different property types. It may not have as good of market knowledge.
Michael Bull: So, I value appraisals, a lot of what they do. But if you have a broker who focuses on one property type in one general area, they may know the comps, they may know how they were marketed, know the competing properties, they know the buyer demand. So, I’d recommend that you find that right broker, have them do a market analysis, and have them recommend the price. Now, the buyer, does he need an appraisal? He’s going to need one, if he gets a new loan. The lender’s going to require. It’s probably going to be ordering through the lender. And it might even be through a third party for the lender. And that lender’s going to look at that appraisal. But the buyer, the typically … Only needs it for that reason, and if he’s a professional buyers, works in that property type a lot, he probably understands the value. Or he has a broker who focuses in that than they do.
Michael Bull: Do you like appraisals for the information they have on the property? The type of roof, the power, the load, the ceiling lights, the systems, the … I’d like an appraisal for that, but I do keep in mind that that appraisal is the opinion of that one person.
Stefan Aarnio: Now, let’s shift gears a little bit here, Michael. You mentioned that you built a team. You got say, 35 agents. Tell me a little bit about what it’s like to recruit and train other people. I think that’s a challenge a lot of people on the show, at home are having with their own businesses. It’s recruiting top talent and training. Can you speak to that a little bit?
Michael Bull: Sure. And it’s even more difficult, when you’re talking about just salespeople, and then you add another level of complexity to it with commercial real estate, because you’ve got a long life cycle. It’s not like … Some salespeople are really great, when you hand them the leads, and they do a sale, and they get paid fairly quickly. On real estate it could take … You could take on a assignment, by the time you get it to market, negotiate deals, get them closed, the closing might be six months later. It also may take the seven touches that we’ve all heard about in sales. So commercial real estate is tougher, and there’s a big … I think most companies that I deal with, are really concerned about recruiting and retention now. The labor market’s tight, it’s tough, so I think you got to look at all the ways that you can recruit and retain.
Michael Bull: And one way to do that, is people who doing it with their real estate, looking at their location. They’re looking at wellness, in their center. They’re looking at where they’re located, how convenient it is for the employees. Is it near where they want to live, work and play? So real estate can be a great way to help you, recruiting and retention. There’s a wellness certification now, that you can get for your office space, that depending on the size of your company, can be huge returns. Just number one on the productivity. And then everyone that owns a business realizes how much turnover costs them. It’s crazy. So I think you just want to pay a lot of attention to your environment. Like, if you look at our environment we have not … [inaudible 00:17:03] here. This is [inaudible 00:17:04] looking up with me, but we have a lot of plans.
Michael Bull: We have healthy foods. We have a game room. We have lighting that’s nice on your eyes, there’s a fitness in the center. And there’s things that … You make it pleasant to work in. And everything in our space, is … I call it fun or interesting, and be a place that you want to work.
Stefan Aarnio: I love what you’re saying that, while creating a place for these people to work … Because, if they want to work, if they want to go to work, they’re going to do a good job. Now, how do you train people? Like well, because, you’ve got an entire training program. Training is the real leverage in scaling a business. Tell me a bit about your training and … You find the talent … What’s the best way to train people in real estate? Because I think there’s a million different opinions on how to train people, and a whole bunch of different ideas. Let’s hear yours.
Michael Bull: Yeah. That’s a good point. You’ve got to continually train. I think the days are gone, when we trained, and then we worked, and then we retired. We’re doing all three now, all the time. We have to be continually training, to stay on top of what we’re doing. So like in our office, we do train every Tuesday, from 9:00 to 10:00, available online or in person. We have lunch and learns on Friday. We have outside training come in through video. We have a 10-week program, that’s come onboarding that helps them set up their business. We have 21 1-hour videos, that comes from my training company commercialagentsuccess.com, and they can watch and listen to those, over and over again. And then we have outside trainers come in. Then for our staff, we have incredible onboarding system. And we pay for a lot of training access that we pay for, that they can have. So I think you’ve got to invest a lot in your people, in your training. And then if you’re in sales, or you’re an entrepreneur, then you have to do that for yourself, and you have to find it.
Michael Bull: In commercial real estate brokers, the training out there is terrible. It’s always been terrible. It’s terribly old school, and that’s why I’ve had to really trade my own training. And that’s why I started that training company. And I’m sharing it with people all over the world, so it’s there and they can license it.
Stefan Aarnio: Wow, that’s amazing. Now, Michael, what do you think is the biggest cause of failure in people? If you take someone in your team, and he starts out, and he wants to do well, what do you think causes people to just wipe out and not be able to succeed in sales, or real estate, or entrepreneurship?
Michael Bull: I think one is sales ability. Are they training in sales? And do they have that …? You don’t have to really have it in you, but are you training in it? Do you understand it? I think the other thing is, are you an entrepreneur? I think some people get in commercial real estate sales, and they fail, if came from a company that gave them a salary. It is a lot tougher for them to make that change. So, if you give me an [inaudible 00:20:08] appraiser, who’s commercial real estate at CCIM, but he’s been on salary all his life, and he wants to join this firm, and then we have a guy who’s been in business and business sales, and he’s done well for five years maybe, and both of them want to come to my firm. I don’t want the guy that had a salary and knows a lot about commercial real estate, I want the sales guy.
Michael Bull: So for commercial real estate brokers, if you have a great sales background, that’s the background you want. Because, you’ll really … As an agent, you’re starting your own company. You are an entrepreneur, you’re selling every day. We have to go get a job every day. We have to negotiate our salary every day. We have to negotiate the deals every day. And if you’re not comfortable with that, and all the things that come with the sales, the time management. If you don’t have great time management, it’s hard to be an entrepreneur, right? So I think it sells … And then there’s consistent prospecting. If you’re an entrepreneur, or a salesperson, I think you’ve got to be very consistent with your business development. And so, commercial real estate sales it’s very important to right types of prospecting, and then be consistent with it.
Michael Bull: So one, you’ve got to learn how to do it right, and then you have to consistently do it. One of the challenges that commercial brokers get in to is [inaudible 00:21:26] deals. They get a couple of deals and a contract, they have “This closed, Mike, I might have a big year, right?”
Stefan Aarnio: We’ve all heard this story. I mean, it’s going to be so big. It’s going to save everything. It’s going to be amazing.
Michael Bull: Exactly. And then they quit doing the daily things. The daily prospecting that makes them successful. So what I learned as a trick, is to have some daily minimum. So, have a goal prospecting every day. What I have a daily minimum that’s low enough that I can get to everyday, no matter what. So, before I go to bed that night, I’m going to make five prospecting calls, to people that I can help and do business with. And I’m going to do it, no matter what. No matter how busy I was that day. So I have a minimum. So that’s a good way to make sure that you’re doing some prospecting each day.
Stefan Aarnio: Now, Michael, if you go back to the beginning, and give yourself a piece of advice. So say, you’re talking to 15-, 16-, 17-year-old Michael Bull, what would you say to yourself?
Michael Bull: Don’t worry about girls and sports, there’ll be plenty of that in the future. Don’t worry about making money, no. I don’t know. I think I did really well, to start off, and find something that excited me to do. And I think that’s one of the things that you want to do, is to find out what’s going to excite you. I remember last summer, I was getting into my car, in my garage at 7:00 a.m. at my age, and I remember grinning, I was so happy. And even though my wife and children were there, and I love spending time with them, I was excited about to work at 7:00 a.m. So I think if you find something that you just really enjoy, you’re going to be more successful. So I think that’s what I would tell young people, who are kind of trying to figure out what to do. Find what you’re going to enjoy.
Michael Bull: I think commercial real estate, there’s a lot of different things to do. There’s management, there’s development, there’s working for fun, there’s appraisals, there’s brokerage, there’s leasing, there’s corporate leasing type of work, then there’s investment sales. Then you have various sectors and price ranges, and … So something like getting a commercial real estate. So like, “Yeah I well. I’m a get into the restaurant business.” Well, now what? What type of restaurant? Where? What price range? So, there’s a lot of different things to do, and some people are more suited for different parts of commercial real estate. And then also thinking about, what are you good at? Testing yourself, before you get out there. “Hey, what am I good at, and what am I not good at. Let’s try to get better at what I’m not good at. And let’s also see who else I can get on my team, that’s good at those things.” I’m not a real good manager, I have great patience. Well guess what? I’ve got a great manager, great patience. So he’s a good team member for me.
Stefan Aarnio: So, Michael, what are top three books that changed your life?
Michael Bull: You know, I like Hard Selling … No, Soft Selling in a Hard World. I think I’ve liked that. I think I like the … Was it the …? The Seven Habits of Successful People.
Stefan Aarnio: Received a copy. Yup.
Michael Bull: Covey, I think that was a good. And the book I think that I laughed at the most, is when I’d first gotten into commercial real estate, and I worked at this company. Hired me when I was 19, and they handed me a gold book, and it was the Commercial Real Estate Bible, or something. And it was introduced to me as my training to be an agent, and it was terrible. Like, “Alright, so what you’re saying is I have to really figure this all out for myself.” And so I’d learn from that, “You know what? I have to work every skill.” You think about brokerage. You’ve got to know about construction. You’ve got to know about sales. You’ve got to know about Law. You’ve got to know about accounting. You’ve got to know about running a business. So there’s a lot of things … I couldn’t write, I couldn’t sell. I had to learn everything. So I’ve just continually studied, and you’ve asked that question before, about the training.
Michael Bull: I still train, and I’ve been in the business for a long time. Some of the most recent I’ve taken, Dale Carnegie. Speaking classes I’ve taken. Standup comedy class, that was a real help for my sales ability. I take classes on hosting television shows. I’m going to continually train because I think that’s one of the mistakes that people make. They think, “Well …” You get to a certain level, and you think that you know it all, and you quit training. Nah, you’re going to go downhill. You’ve got to continually train to get better, or where’s the excitement in life, right?
Stefan Aarnio: I love what you said there about taking stand up comedy classes. That’s a new idea. I think I’m going to go do that myself. A couple more questions for you to wrap up here, Michael. I asked you what you would say to your younger self. You said, “Pick something you’re excited … something you’re passionate about.” Now, to the young people today, the millennials, the generations Z. You know, everybody likes to bang and millennials, and say they’re lazy, and entitled, and all these things. What do you think is the one thing that young people, millennials need to succeed these days?
Michael Bull: Well I think, they do want to work on their communication skills, and not being afraid to … You know, hide behind the keyboard, and work on those communication skills. Work on sales skills. Work on entrepreneur skills. I heard there’s a school, there’s a college in Florida, that just started a program … It’s not FSU, the college in Tallahassee. They just started a program that’s for entrepreneurs. You can get a degree in being an entrepreneur. How incredible is that?
Stefan Aarnio: No one’s going to hire you with that degree. You got to hire yourself, bro. Come on, man.
Michael Bull: Exactly.
Stefan Aarnio: Come on. How’s that legal? How’s that legal to sell that?
Michael Bull: I think that’s the key. Keep training. Keep getting better.
Stefan Aarnio: Awesome, I love that. Michael, for people at home, how can they get in touch with you? How can they get in touch with your training?
Michael Bull: Yeah, so, commercialagentsuccess.com, is the video training, and it’s all cloud-access. And my company is bullrealty.com, is our website. You can reach me through either of those. And then if they want to reach me through the commercial real estate show, it’s creshow.com or commercialrealestateshow.com. And that’s my commercial real estate show, that I’ve been doing for eight years. So you can reach me through any of that. I’m all over social media. For a commercial real estate broker, I’ve got a pretty big following on social media. I’m on Linkedin and Twitter, are two of my favorites, I guess.
Stefan Aarnio: Awesome. Well, thanks so much to be on this show, Michael. Respect The Grind.
Michael Bull: Alright. Thank you for having me. Appreciate it.
Stefan Aarnio: Hey, it’s Stefan Aarnio here, thank you for listening to another episode of my podcast, Respect The Grind. Now if you like the content on this podcast today, you’re going to love my new book, Hard Times Create Strong Men. Now, we live in an age right now, where the men have become weak, society has become weak, the mindset has become weak. What does it mean to be a man? Now, whether you’re a man or a woman, you’re going to find value is this book, Hard Times Create Strong Men, which reveal the philosophy, and the power of what it takes to be strong in today’s market economy. Go ahead and get a copy of Hard Times Create Strong Men, at hardtimesstrongmen.com/podcast. That’s going to give you a special offer, just for podcast listeners. That’s hardtimesstrongmen.com/podcast. Get the book, you’re going to love it. It’s going to change the way you think. I’m Stefan Aarnio, Respect The Grind. We’ll see you on the next episode.
